Couteaux Papillons

Soutien. Main x2

Objet. Arme. Corps-à-corps.

Coût: 3. XP: 2.

Gardien

: Combattre. Vous gagnez +1 pour cette attaque. Après cette attaque, vous avez le droit d'incliner les Couteaux Papillons pour combattre à nouveau en ajoutant votre à votre valeur de compétence pour cette attaque, elle inflige +1 dégât.

Pour quelqu'un d'habile, ils sont une véritable extension de la main.
Steve Ellis
Aux Confins de la Terre – Extension Investigateurs #25.
Couteaux Papillons

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Reviews

You ever say to yourself "I want to attack with ALL my stats" well right here we have for you today a grand special deal.

Roland's Enchanted Butterfly Knives of the Mind! (over matter)

Never again have to think about which stat does what, just add them all together and blast your opponent with them!

Zerogrim · 292

Butterfly Swords is interesting as guardian weapons go. In terms of investment, it's a 3-cost card that takes up 2 hands. The resource cost is average as weapons go, but its cost means you won't be holding a second item without a Bandolier.

It's a 2 XP weapon, meaning characters with secondary Guardian access ("Skids" O'Toole, Diana Stanley, Joe Diamond, and William Yorick, along with Lily Chen on release) can use it, along with all of the full guardians. It's rather cheap in terms of Resource cost, only requiring 3 resources to be a permanent fight option.

The fight option itself is also interesting. The first part is simply a fight at +1 attack - not a particularly strong option on its own. Any fighter wants to be dealing extra damage to actually handle larger threats, and non-fighters will need a bigger bonus if they want to reliably land a blow. It's a small bonus, but not the focus.

The second part is the part that you're paying for. After a fight with the swords, you can exhaust the swords to fight again, adding your to the test. This means that you'll get a second check (regardless of if the first hit or miss), which can be used to target the same or a different enemy, and which will be at a reasonable bonus. (The only Guardian with less than 2 is Leo Anderson, and everybody else will get +2, at the least.)

How good is that in practice? If you're only dealing with a single big monster, it's solid. You can take down 3 HP targets with a single attack, or get some decent attacks on 2 targets should their health be low. If the enemy has 4 HP, then you can match any other +1 damage weapon by taking two attack actions at it. 2 extra damage every turn isn't something to scoff at - at the least, you can compare it to firing off a +1 damage weapon twice every round, on a tool that doesn't require ammo.

Conversely, this means that the weapon is weaker if you're ever spending the entire time attacking, or don't have enough to make an extra attack consistently land. An extra attempt each sequence does mean you might be putting yourself at further risk if Retaliate is a factor.

More importantly, how does it compare to the other guardian weapons at that cost?

  • .32 Colt (2) - A bit higher cost, and an extra hand slot is taken, but unless you're spending all 3 actions attacking, you're coming out ahead. Then again, unless you're Mark Harrigan, you're probably not looking at this to begin with - and even if you are, it's probably not one of your upgrade options.
  • .45 Automatic (2) - You're comparing against the 'core' firearm. At 1 cost less expensive and winning over two rounds of fighting, if you can spare the hand slot, this probably comes out ahead.
  • Blackjack (2) - Blackjack has always been a reasonable backup weapon at 3-4 player count, so in those circumstances, it's worth consideration. However, at lower player counts or as a compromise option, Butterfly Swords isn't bad - having your attack broken into two fights means that you risk more collateral, but will also divide the risk into separate instances as well.
  • Survival Knife (2) - The Survival Knife tends to be a more specific weapon, useful when you plan on countering enemies that attack you. It's not a bad weapon, but is more to fill a specific niche, rather than being something meant for primary fights.

So, for its XP cost, this weapon can certainly have its place. Unlike other weapons, which tend to fill a secondary role, this weapon is more of a primary pick. If your hand slots are precious, then it's not the best option. However, if you don't need both hand slots and don't need as much of a raw boost, this might be a solid pick.

The main downside regarding low XP weapons remains that most of the time, full fighters prefer to jump to one of the 5-XP weapons to keep their efficiency high. Even non-guardians will have Timeworn Brand to jump to, and Guardians will jump at the opportunity to have their pick of Lightning Gun, Flamethrower, or Holy Spear. Even if there's XP available after, there are times where it's more cost effective to find a Backpack (2) rather than try to purchase more weapons.

So, is this worth getting? It depends on what you need. It's not one of the big guns that will let you take out a boss on its own. If you're looking for something to fill more of a 'backup' role or absolutely need to be able to spend your entire turn attacking, it may be better to look elsewhere. And if your hand slots are needed for other things, this will be awkward to fit in. However, if you have a reasonable to back it up, this is a solid weapon with good staying power that can last for a good chunk of a scenario. If you can take advantage of the bursts that it uses to fight, it's worth consideration.

Ruduen · 984
I think this weapon goes really well with Galvanize, being able to do the extra attack that exaust and does extra damage one more time in a turn can give a really good burst of damage when needed. — Auraco · 1
Skids seems like an interesting option with 4 agility, and the ability to leverage it for other things, but OTOH, the first attack will take some investment with only +1 boost. — Zinjanthropus · 227
You forgot to compare the blades with the machete: same costs, less xp and hands, a more reliable damage boost. The only advantage of the swords is that you can kill a 3hp enemy in one action if you don't miss. With less or more hp of the enemy the Machete is in my opinion better. — Tharzax · 1
The way I read this the second fight doesn't consume an action. Can someone correct me if I am wrong — xtremebystander · 1
Yes if you decide to take the second attack you don't need an extra action, but then the knife exhaust. — Tharzax · 1
A minor point, but another benefit is that you can kill a 2-hp enemy in one action even if your first attack misses. (Assuming that your boosted second attack hits, anyway). In the same way, you can kill a 3-health enemy in 2 actions even if one of the base attacks miss. — Firerunner · 1
I think the best in knifes is that you can kill one 1hp and second 2hp enemy at one action — Pawiu14 · 184
How does this card interact with Enchanted Weapon? You exhaust Enchanted Weapon once the attack action starts, but the attack action doesn't end until the second attack is done. Note that Butterfly Knife doesn't say that you perform a second attack action, but instead you attack again during the same action? — AliMoe · 1

What is the secret of Lily’s Discipline was in front of our eyes the whole time?

Not through the main attack that does only 1 damage, but the empowered attack that does 3 damage in one attack (same as for the Butterfly Swords (5)).

So if you use Bandolier (2) to get 2 copies down, you can Enchant both Weapons and the beauty of it is that if you exhaust one pair and then the other, that would count as 2 attacks for your Discipline.

Use your Enchant Weapon boost on your first attack to give it all the chances to land and trigger the second one.

This requires a bit of set-up and at least 5 cards, but this way you will be able to deal 8 damages reliably in 2 actions, without any lvl 5 weapon.

Keep Galvanize in hand for an extra burst, or your Fight Events like Spectral Razor, Toe to Toe or Sweeping Kick.

A nice deck for this version of Lily could look like this: arkhamdb.com and evolve with the Side Deck for a lot of stat boosts making her compatible with Hard/Expert

Valentin1331 · 69029
But... That's five cards, five play actions, 14 resources and 12 Xp. That's not "a bit of setup" in my book. Why not just upgrade the Butterfly swords to the less sucky level 5 version? (or something better) — olahren · 3412
While I agree with you that it is substantial, compared to a lot of Dragon Pole Lily Decks, or most guardians, that is still reasonable. And the lvl 5 are not necessary as the idea is to skip the normal attack — Valentin1331 · 69029
But why avoid level 5 weapons? Enchant Weapon is a level 3 card, so your combo is only accessable to the more dedicated guardians anyhow. A single Flamethrower can deal 8 damage in 2 attacks. Cyclopean Hammer can do at least 6 damage, often more, in three attacks. It just seems excessive and cumbersome to dual wield two pairs of enchanted Butterfly swords. — olahren · 3412
What I am trying to do here is to leverage the Agility Discipline for Lily, and the Flamethrower or the Cyclopean Hammer do not synergise with it, when that combo does help you with 2 attacks out of 3 with a good amount of damage. Also the flamethrower can do the same, but has a very limited amount of Ammo, and you need to work around that aspect with a good amount of cards in your deck, the hammer is good but you will often also attach an Enchant Weapon on it. I’m not saying it’s the best weapon in the game, but it might be the best way to use Lily’s agility discipline! — Valentin1331 · 69029
This is an, at minimum, 12 XP, 14 resources, and 5 card combo to... achieve 8 damage in 2 attacks. This is, suffice to say, not a good combo. While I understand you are trying to work around Balance of Body, this isn't actually doing much with balance of body, and this intended combo I would say is a good example of everything a combo shouldn’t be, and a good collection of classic mistakes one might make when trying to invent combos. For example, you picked non-synergistic elements (enchant weapon and butterfly swords don’t work well together because enchant weapon gets much less value on a two attack weapon), elements that don’t synergize with the core concept (enchant weapon is not useful for a ‘spam attacks’ strategy, it is there for one punch strategies), and combined elements that reference each other’s mechanics but don’t actually synergize (while balance of body adds speed and butterfly sword uses speed, the speed does not meaningfully help the combo because you are already going to hit with enchant weapon basically every time). While I think balance of body has potential, and butterfly sword 2 has more utility than 5 just because of the XP cost and card access, this its really bad way to use them even in your intended circumstances (Ex: no ammo, lilly chen and thus no guns anyway, balance of body). — dezzmont · 212
Any combo to work essentially needs to take the output, subtract the input, and see if it is actually doing anything better than ignoring combos and doing things normally (in this case, equipping the hammer and going wild). In this case, this combo wildly underpreforms to the hammer striking even with just one action for most of the game (as the level of resources, cards, and XP mean this combo probably never fully goes off in any given campaign you play! Guardians aren’t known for being able to draw 5 specific cards or pour out a pile of resources turn 4). A good balance of body combo should focus on the strengths of what balance of body offers (mainly, emergency damage as long as you have lots of cheap ways to attack you otherwise can get utility out of, such as Survival knife 2, rather than anything to do with speed) rather than trying to arbitrarily use every element of balance of body. — dezzmont · 212

This should have been green. In principle, it could be really powerful for a specific playstyle. Unfortunately, that playstyle doesn't really exist yet, at least not for anyone who can include the card and cope with its quirks.

TLDR

--This is not a weapon for boss killers or full time fighter. -- If you plan to fight three or more times per turn it is very bad, and lots of characters can fight more than three times when the chips are down. --It is terrible against retaliate, damage reduction, enemies that punish attacking/damaging them, and bad stuff token effects. --It is very efficient for flex-fighters who want to attack only once or twice per turn --Especially if they care about evasion or oversuccess --Unfortunately the two hand slots are a big ask for flexes --And few people who would want this can actually include it

The Good

  • Dealing 3 damage in one action is really good, and this can do that once per turn forever
  • It can also deal 4 damage over two actions like a normal weapon.
  • Against 1-3 health enemies you're killing much more reliably in fewer actions, although also at more risk of triggering fail effects. Compared to Machete or Brand, you get two chances instead of 1 to deal 1 damage in 1 action. If you only need 2 actions you only need to pass your +foot test which should be very high skill. If you need 3 damage in two action you do need to pass the foot test but only one of the two basic attacks, where Brand-likes have to pass 2 out of 2 checks.

The Weird

  • As Lockpicks has shown us, combining 2 stats can be really good.
  • However, there is more support for stacking +foot +book together than +fist +foot, IMO.
  • Also unlike lockpicks, this only uses foot sometimes, and it forces you to make fist+1 checks first.
  • Most guardians only have 2 or 3 agility, so the second attack is only +1-2 points better than the first one without further boosting. Guardians also have lots of other ways to boost attacks with XP. Making a +1 to hit weapon Reliable or Enchanted for instance might help you more.
  • If your agility is 4+, then the gap between your first and second skill checks becomes a problem. On standard the distance between "uncomfortably risky" and "all-but-guaranteed" tends to be about 2 skill points. A 5/4 investigators swings this at 6/9/6, but either the 6s are very risky or the 9 is overkill.
  • The whole point of doing all your killing in your first action is to spend your time doing something else useful. But this takes up both of your hands, which greatly limits your options.
  • So the ideal user for these would be a high-agility flex character who can get clues with their hands full.

Synergies and Possibilities.

Part 1 -- Should Have Been Green

  • Lots of rogues reach 7 or 8 natively with the 2-damage swing, which is better than their other level 2 weapons
  • Triggers lucky cigarettes easily
  • You could use Hidden Pocket to carry a Lockpicks or Thieves Kit alongside
  • with Dirty Fighting you can evade, get +2 to the weaker first swing and then follow up with the +agility second swing for huge skill tests and action compression.
  • Evade also turns off retaliate
  • Sadly, Winifred/Kymani/Finn can't access this and Skids is still really bad.

Part 2 -- Other clue options

If you can't scam hand slots for an investigate tool, you could rely on snapping up clues from events/allies/skill cards or investigating with spells. That would make you some kind of weird tri-stat build by maybe it's doable if you stack multi-boosters like Crystalline Elder Sign, Dark Horse, Geas, or Composures.

Part 3 -- As a sidearm

You could of course plan to use these just for one 3-damage action per turn and then to follow up with other attack forms. You could soften groups with Mk 1 Grenades and then split attacks to finish multiple wounded enemies, supplement with a spell, or get Bandolier, Boxing Gloves and some martial arts moves. With off-class access you could fold in other once-per-round shenanigans like Chuck-boosted actions, Hatchet throws, and the like.

Part 4 -- The secret super-synergy

The card that actually breaks this wide open is, obviously, Sled Dog. With even 2 dogs down you get two chances per turn to deal 2 damage in one action, at +2 and +AGI respectively, and if you proc retaliate you can throw the dogs under the bus. If you can reach 3 dogs you now have 3 damage twice per round, or the ability to zoom across the map to deliver your 3-damage flurry. If only Leo Anderson's agility weren't 1.

OrionAnderson · 69
Yeah, this would work a lot better in green. On a similar note, why isn't Kicking the Hornet's Nest blue? It would work so perfectly there... — NightgauntTaxiService · 404
I mean, Blue already has On the Hunt and First Watch to find enemies, although maybe they could use one more option along those lines. And they do have lots of ways to turn enemies into clues already. Green is getting more and more clue and economy cards every cycle that only work when enemies are present, so we should expect them to keep getting ways to find enemies also. — OrionAnderson · 69
I understand, I was just thinking that Kicking the Hornet's Nest would help Guardian with their economy issues. — NightgauntTaxiService · 404

Duda. ¿Qué ataque tiene +1? El primer ataque o el segundo? Al indicar Ese ataque (that attack) por tiempo y posición, entiendo que el primer ataque es el que hace +1 de daño. Mientras que el segundo sería este (This)...

Erwilly · 1
El primer ataque no tiene daño extra. Solo lo tiene el segundo. — rodro · 196